“Mamma li Turchi!!”, Italy and the Saladin Syndrome


www.flholocaustmuseum.org/frameworks/propaganda_usa.htmHere is the work of an unknown Italian artist, representing a Muslim and his hate for our civilization….No, oops, sorry…it is not a Muslim, it is a Jew. Well, to correct the mistake, this is an unknown Italian artist in 1941 representing the Jewish domination of America, in particular New York City, recognizable here by the Statue of Liberty and the New York City skyline. You can see this anti-Semitic wartime poster at the Florida Holocaust Museum. Today in Italy, the traditional fascist hatred of the Jew is increasingly substituted by a hatred of Muslims, all of them, children, women and men. Today Muslims in Italy are not so differently represented as their Semitic brothers were during the time of the Fascio and the Eia Eia alala.

To be a Muslim and live in Italy, particularly in the North of the country, politically dominated by the far-right parties Lega Nord (North League, a secessionist party) and Alleanza Nazionale (National Alliance, the bigger post-fascist party), is not just difficult, it is a nightmare. Recently discrimination against the Italian Muslims as well as the immigrants has risen to an unacceptable level for a European country subscribing to, and strongly supporting, the European Convention for Human Rights. I have to admit that if any other European country, such as France, the UK or Germany, would dare to discriminate against their Muslim population as Italy is currently doing, they would face a political as well as social backlash.

Many are the examples of negative attitudes of Italians towards Islam and Muslims in general. One of the best voices to represent such phobia is surely the late Oriana Fallaci, very much a product of that vociferous populism of religious and cultural hatred which the new fascist movement, Lega Nord is today, trying to engender among Italians. I have discussed Oriana’s hysterical fear of Islam in another post. Yet since the case of the Mosque and Islamic centre planned for Colle di Val d’Elsa, near Siena, other cases have seen Italian politicians and ordinary people crying, in the melodramatic style characteristic of certain genres of Italian drama, ‘Mamma li Turchi’ (‘Mother the Turks are coming’).

Of course, in the country of the Mortadella, Parma Ham and spice sausages, the protests against Muslims have often seen pigs (both living and dead) paraded, in the hope that the ‘contamination’, like garlic for vampires, would keep the Mohammedans, or Islamists (as Italians insist on calling Muslims) away. Therefore, if in Colle Val d’Elsa, locals pelted Muslims with sausages and dumped a severed pig’s head at the site, in Bologna, a former minister of the Italian republic, Mariella Mazzetto, has organised a pig parade, which succeeded in convincing Bologna Mayor Sergio Cofferati, a former communist leader of the most powerful trade unions, to stop the construction of the mosque.

Despite the protests of some Italians, who are disgusted by the level of discrimination that Muslims suffer in the attempt to respect their faith, local councils and right-wing Mayors, as well as conservative sections of the Catholic Church, continue their crusade against a majority of ordinary, law-abiding and hard working Italian Muslims. Hence, we can read in the article published by AKI – Adnkronos International ­

Bepi Zambon, former tennis champion and owner of the exclusive Tennis Club Zambon has allocated two courts for local Muslims to worship on – one for men and the other for women. But on Wednesday, the Muslim festival of sacrifice Eid al-Adha, shortly after 300 Muslims had arrived at the tennis club for prayers, local traffic wardens and firemen showed up, as well as an anti-terror police officer. They began rigorously inspecting parked cars and fire exits at the club and asking for documents, on strict instructions to write up any infractions and issue fines mercilessly.
The traffic wardens had been sent to the tennis club by anti-immigrant Northern League politician and deputy mayor of Treviso, Giancarlo Gentilini. Three years ago he invoked a 1975 public order law and ordered police to arrest women wearing the Islamic burqa in Treviso. […]The tennis courts are currently the only prayer area for Muslims in Treviso. They last month lost a prayer space allocated them inside a local church in the Ponzano district of Treviso after this sparked controversy, and were evicted from their mosque in Villorba in the province of Treviso.

Today we can read in the Italian newspaper, La Republica, that, though no crime has being discover, the prayer area has been closed, and Muslim forced to prayer in the street, where they, of course, can be arrested for illegal congregation (one of the many Mussolini’s laws still valid in the republic).

Not only are Muslims in Italy disrupted in their efforts to establish official (hence controlled and approved by the councils and the state) congregational spaces, but they are also demonised and misrepresented in a hardly believable way. Recently, Giancarlo Gentilini, deputy mayor of Treviso and staunch anti-Muslim activist, has said that Muslims, are a ‘cancer which must be eradicated before they start to spread’. Political posters and leaflets often speak of ‘Islamic invasion’ in Italy, of a Europe being controlled by an Islamic lobby, or Muslim women, all of them, as passive creatures oppressed by an archaic and primitive religion, Islam. It is very difficult, in Italy, to find any balanced and informed discussion about Islam and Muslims. Like in a tragic opera, everything should be sung at the top of one’s voice, with vibrato and tragic emphasis. Muslims living in Italy (often called Mohammedans, Islamists, Saladins, or, even when not specifically originally from those countries, Turks, and Moroccans) have to read, often everyday, misleading information about their religion and themselves.

Of course, when there is a crime, they are the first to be suspected, and I am speaking of ordinary crimes. For instance, recently, a woman was kidnapped, and the Italian mass media reported that the woman was kidnapped by an alleged ‘Moroccan gang’. In reality the kidnapping, which ended in tragedy, was very much, as usual, the work of an Italian. This was not the first time, nor will it be the last, that horrific crimes would be attributed to Muslims, generally called Marocchini. Another example is the so-called ‘strage d’Erba’ in which an entire part of the family was killed and a young child found with his throat cut. Immediately, the husband and father of the boy was accused: he was a Muslim Tunisian, and some investigators suggested that ‘he has killed as Muslims kill’. Again the reality was different, and the culprits were the very much Catholic neighbours. Even in the case of the English Erasmus student killed in Perugia, Meredith, Muslims and Arabs were accused of the murder; indeed, if there is a knife and a slit throat, who other may it be?

Finally, one of the most common accusations against Moroccans and Muslims in general in Italy is that they are criminals, particularly rapists. It is interesting to observe recent Istat statistics that have finally revealed that behind this myth there was a shocking reality, 90% of rapes have been committed by Italians. If you are an Italian woman, the highest risk to you would come from a member of your family, a boyfriend or just a friend, since only 6% of all rapes are committed by an aggressor unknown to the victim. Of all rapes 3% may be attributed to ‘foreigners’, with less than 0.50% to a North Africans (who may be or not Muslim). So, the Italian chimeria that Muslims systematically are raping Italian girls remains another urban Muslimphobic legend.

Stereotypes about Arabs and Muslims, which as ever existed in Italy, are today becoming what for instance Langmuir defines in his article chimerias. They are something more dangerous than mere stereotypes since chimerias are based on fables. Fables go beyond stereotypes since they represent the collective fear of ‘others’ rather than a simplification of characteristics which have a kernel of truth (i.e. Italians are Mafiosi – it is a generalisation of a particular truth: some Italians are). The majority of Italians are neither fascist nor racist, yet a great majority holds denigratory opinions about both Muslims and Islam based on chimerias. The reason behind this is education.

Not only do Italians not receive any education about Islam, other than the official one thought by Catholic priests in the schools and that offered by the mass media, but also they rarely will have an occasion to meet a Muslim, because of the statistical facts that I will discuss later. Yet they are exposed, however, to another aspect of education which the anthropologist Gregory Bateson has named Deutero-learning, or in other words, learning to learn. Bateson has suggested that people, though repetition of particular information or experiences, learn to recognise characteristic patterns of conditioning in different situations involving themselves and others, and then they learn to adapt their own behaviour as a response to those patterns.

In other words, Italians today (but we can extend this to other western countries) because of the continuous repetition of chimerias about Muslims (as happened during the 1930s and 1940s about the Jews) are learning to recognise this characteristic pattern of conditioning in the different situations in which they find themselves, and so they are adapting their own behaviour towards the real Muslims. Indeed, the majority of Italians do not know anything about Islam or Muslims, they have even never met one, leave aside spoken to one. However, they have learned to learn about these people. Here begins the exaggerated and hysterical paranoia about Muslims and Islam, which, nonetheless, appears totally real to them, as per the Deutero-learning.

Indeed, if we leave the statistics to speak for themselves, we can observe that many of the ‘facts’ that Italians believe about Muslims in Italy are inexistent beyond their chimeric imagination. Politicians and many ordinary people say Muslims are invading Italy and that they would take control of the nation to make Italians pray as Muslims do. But how many Muslims live in Italy? Try to ask any Italian, and the numbers may go wild. The statistic reality is very different. Italians number 57,440,000, while all religious minorities (i.e. non-Catholics) are only 2,600,000, which means 4.52% of the entire population. Muslims, although they are 33% of the non-Catholic religions, are only 1.49% of all the Italian population, and 10,000 Muslims of this 1.49% are actually Italian born.

Compare this 1.49% with the rest of Europe and the US, and we can laugh together at the Italian idea of Saladin taking over the Cupolone (i.e. Saint Peter’s in Rome).

Gabriele

46 thoughts on ““Mamma li Turchi!!”, Italy and the Saladin Syndrome

  1. This article is absolutly misleading and does not respect Italy and Italian people. Italy, that is my country, is till now a democratic, open and friendly country.
    What you have written respect only one small aspect of Italian reality, the xenofobic and fascist part, but does not represent absolutly what Italy and italian people are.
    I have muslim friends in Italy that are well integrated and happy to live there, they don’t have any kind of problem, they can profess their religion , their customs and their festivity without any problem.
    At least, what you think about muslim men that think western women only instrument for sex?
    Is this honest?
    You can find integralism and fundamentalism everywhere, it is matter of persons, not matter of religion or nationality.
    sorry for my intervention.
    regards.
    Olivia

  2. Dear all,

    Although I thank all of you for your comments, and although I am a strenuous supporter of freedom of speech, I wish to remind you of two things:

    a) the rules concerning the moderation of comments, which you can find here

    b) the fact that personal polemics, not related to the actual discussion of the post, but to previous commentators should not be allowed.

    So, I thank you in advance for moderating yourself before posting your comment.

    Best wishes
    Gabriele

  3. I find this article again thought provoking and nvites everyone to reflect on the climate of Islamophobia in Italy. I was in Italy a couple of years ago and I can tell you how much ignorance of Islam and Muslims in Italy. You hardly find headscarved women and even Muslims are shunning their Muslim identities in order to be accepted by mainstream Italian society in vain. Examples are of my own extended family: although Italian and well-integrated find it iften hard to get fellow Italians accept them as part and parcel of the Italian social fabric. Thins need to be done urgently through education, otherwise young Italian Muslims will be left behind their non-Muslim counterparts and will indefinitely suffer discrimination, stigmitzation and outright rejection from their host country.
    Thanks again
    Peace to all
    Houda

  4. Mr. Marranci,

    This would all sound reasonable if indeed the fear of Islam was irrational as you claim. You through this thesis of islamophobia in almost every article of yours but you can not justify that the fear of Islam is indeed irrational and you do not wish to look at another side. (Or should we belive that *every* fear is irrational and xenophobic?) And without solid justification of irrationality of such fear you post is no more than a cheep political poster, a sort of common place liberal left propaganda, which should be a shame for someone who claim to be a scholar.

    What is the origin of Italian saying “Mamma li Turchi!!?” What makes you so sure that history will not repeat itself? Christianity has changed but has Islam changed?

    You lament pigs in Masjids but you silently condone terrorist acts and Muslim riots. You do not wish to look at e.g. what is going now in Pakistan and what was in Paris. Perhaps you justify the rioots in Parise as result of discrimination. What a horrible crime, a pig thrown in Masjid :-) and who cares about those torched cars and destroed properties.

    Indeed you are right, if Friench start doing what Italians do they will have more riots because they have too many of those peaceful Muslims :-) Eventually they will realized who is who but it will be to late and all may end up in a civil war.

    Below are some links which most Italians can read which explain well why *some of them* do fear Islam and why all of them *should* fear Islam and why they should close their border for Muslim emigrants. But I afraid they would not do it and they are far too kind (as Olivia’s post indicates).

    Here are stats figures on Muslim support of extremism:

    Here is statistics on Islamic terrorist acts over the globe since 9/11:

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

    I like the header of that stat table:

    It’s all about Iraq, isn’t it?

    Yep, it’s all about Iraq and…

    India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal
    and the Maldives and…

    …and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, … nor follow
    the religion of truth… until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
    Qur’an, Sura 9:29

  5. Mr Marranci:

    Plese tell me one thing: If I am aware that 50% of Pakistanis support Osama Bin laden in 2007 (and in 2005 it was 98%) with similar statistics for other Muslim states, why my concerns about Islamic emigration are irrational? I look not only at statistics, at one point I had Muslim friends who were supporters of terrorism and I know what is going on there.

    Please, tell me why, starting preferably from your own definition of what is rational and what is irrational I should not fear spraeding of Islam in Europe, specifically in Italy? Yes, I would appreciate your comments on what constitutes rational behavior.

    Have fun,
    NeoZionist NeoNeoCon

  6. Dear Neoneo,

    first of all, the issue that I find in your post is a lack of respect for others (that I have to say, you courageously admit). Of course you are entitled to your opinions, however radical they might be but, if you think so, we have to recognise that also others are entitled to their radical opinions.

    I do not see very much difference between your hate and prejudice and that of some Muslim extremists I have interviewed. Of course, I do not like any form of extremism, including the one you express above.

    I think that to generalise is dangerous and this is my point. Many of the people that have today called for my death and offended me because of my criticisms of Mr Spencer are certainly not Muslims, but westerners. Should I now, from today, fear any white western guy that approaches me, or knocks on the door of my office? Should I be irrational and from now see whoever criticises my posts as possible terrorists?

    Read some of the comments I have received (I moderated the most extreme) and imagine that they were written by Muslim members of fanatic movements. Would you have seen me as some kind of poor, persecuted, ‘Rushdie’-type figure? Perhaps so.

    Now, imagine that tomorrow one of Spencer’s crazy supporters kills me in the street to the scream, ‘Muslim apologist!’ Would you compare my death to that of Theo Van Gogh, and blame Spencer and his entourage for my death? Or, actually, would you say that just an isolated lunatic had killed me?

    It seems to me that fascist behaviour is justified in the name of the defence of a ‘civilization’, but it should be considered irrational when in the name of a deity.

    So, my definition of rationality is that there should not be a contradiction between one’s own beliefs.

    For me, any fascist behaviour is unacceptable, and any form of hate irrational. Yet not for this reason am I going to hate all the extreme right-wingers out there.

    Happy new year to all,
    Gabriele

  7. Dear Gabriele,
    Thanks for your reply and thanks for letting me appreciate the deepness of your thoughts:-)

    you write: “first of all, the issue that I find in your post is a lack of respect for others (that I have to say, you courageously admit).”

    And why respect should be forgranted? Second, did you show much respect to Spencer or to GOP? I think you did not and I do not blame you for this. I just disagree with you and do not blame you.

    Just as you do not divide the world into us and others but divide it perhaps into the Left and the Right of various form and those poor things from 3d world and out of those categories you respect anyone but the Right I too have some discrecions.

    Does this make me an extremist? Does my lack of respect for fascism make me an extremsit? If so you are extremist too. Your blatant comparison of GOP with fascism is disrespectful, slandering and has to be prosecuted in European Human Right commission. This is a joke :-)

    you write “Many of the people that have today called for my death and offended me because of my criticisms of Mr Spencer are certainly not Muslims, but westerners. Should I now, from today, fear any white western guy that approaches me, or knocks on the door of my office? ”

    If someone threatened to kill you I would advice you to complain to fbi. They have site for complains. To your question:
    If we had any precedents of killing apologists of Islam I would certainly had reason to afraid if I were you and you would be probably much more serious. But you know too well that no one islamoapologist was killed for being islamoapologist so you will not afraid of western guys. This is a normal Bayesian reasoning used as common sense and you do it , though you may not aware of Bayes Theorem and can not explain your thought. On the other hand Muslim extremists do kill (see statistic I posted) and since they do it very often, (fa-ar too more often than Spenserdonians kills islamoapologis with ratio zero to infinity) why should not I be afraid of Muslim. This is usual common sense: if you stay in high crime neighborhood, do not go out in the night. So what exactly make me an extremist?

    You write “I do not see very much difference between your hate and prejudice and that of some Muslim extremists I have interviewed.”

    This only means that you are not perceptive. I do have hate but where is prejudice? I have judgement about Islam aposteriory, backed by my studies and personal experience. I made it clear and you still call it prejudice. This is wrong. You may criticize may approach based on Bayesian statistics and common sense, but there is no any reason to call it prejudice. I do have hate though (not for Muslims but for the doctrine of Islam)

    You are comparing me to people who believe that they should dominate the world and who think that those who do not believe in what they believe should be killed, they are behading innocent people because they happen to be jews or americans. How fare and unbalanced!!!

    you write ” Of course, I do not like any form of extremism, including the one you express above.”

    Would you please explain what precisely make me an extremist? I am not getting it. I do not want to impose my beliefs on anyone or kill anyone. I look at statistical figures I use my mind and I conclude that Islam present a huge problem for the West if Muslims migration to the west is not stopped.

    I agree with Stein who said that Europe is “A Muslim continent”! “The number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes”! Having such believes make me an extremists, but why? The “Muslim continent” statement is not only factual , it’s been said by Libya’s strongman Muammar Qaddafi. “The number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes” was not a phrase of neocon Steyn . Stein who mentioned this in “America Alone” was quoting Mullah Krekar, a jihadist. Is that reporting the intention of Muslim extremists make me an extremists. Is that reporting statistic of Islamic terror make me an extremists? I beg you Mr. Marranci to explain me what makes me an extremists similar to those whom youn interviewd ( I had talk with some of those too)

    Personally I see only one similarity: both them and me read Quran and understand the intended meaning. Both them and me are focused on historical Islam and interpret Quran according to the tradition of scholars. So is that being a honest interpreter what makes me and them extremists? I do not think it is right to take honesty for extremsism.

    you write “It seems to me that fascist behaviour is justified in the name of the defence of a ‘civilization’, but it should be considered irrational when in the name of a deity.”

    What fascist behavior in the name of saving civilization? Introducing Patriot Act that gives FBI powers similar to what MI5 and MI6 alwase had? When Americans were fighting Japan they were fa-ar more taught than now, but no one called it fascist. Would you compare American internment camps for japanese national to nazi concentration camps? Now we do not do any of what we did that time but millions of left liberals especially in Europe call Bush fascist. What a nocense.

    If you acknowledge that Islam has elements of fascism and some Muslims follow it, why do not you write about Islamofascism as well? And what is your suggestion on how to deal with Islamic fascism? Should we all let those radical Muslims to subjugate us just as they subjugate their own Muslims in Islamic controies on the name of their deity out of fear to look fascist because we are defending ourselves from fascism? Secondly if you are concern about fascism why do not you acknowledge that Islam has it. Do you afraid to look xenophobic?

    you write “So, my definition of rationality is that there should not be a contradiction between one’s own beliefs.”

    Well, then we all are rational besides you.
    If you see that there are element fascism in Islam why do not you write about it just like you write about GOP.

    I do not have contradiction in my own believes. Say if a “spencerdonian” kills you then I would be concern about “spenserdonism. ” But at the moment there is no spencerdonism, but there is Islam which kills and murder. (would you please pay attention to the numbers and statistical figures) Having this numbers your making up of this idea of “spencerdonism” look entierly ridiculous and out of place. No wonder why Spencer got offended. Also note, Spencer is not alone he is just one of many who say the same thing about Islam. What is the need to single him out of the large constellation of critics of Islamofascism. Have a look at work of Ali Sian, Bridgite Gabriel, Waffa Sultan etc…

    Another problem, your definition does not tell the difference between a ‘martidrom seeker” who honestly believe in his 72 virgin after his death and a normal shopkeeper who believe in becoming reach. Both of those may act honestly according to respective system of believes. Or do you sugest that martidrom seekers have contradictions in their set of believes?

    Happy New Year to you too.

    Neoneo

  8. Dear all,
    I must admit that it has become the norm today to criminilize anything related to Islam. Fear of Islam or islamophobia is, alas often practised in a politically correct Western world unde the mantra of the fight against terrorism. Muslims live under constant fear in the West because they are made to feel ashamed of their own religion. Many go into lengths and adopt Judeo-Christians in their discourses and manners in order to integrate Western societies. That is reminiscent of Jewish people since the Pogroms in the 19th century, to the Holocaust and post-WW2. Muslims in the West have become apologetic and hide in order not to be ostracised. I think it is a shameful thing that democracy indirectly forces many law-abiding Muslims citizens in the West intoregretting being born Muslims. All thsi is done in teh name of the fight of global terrorism. Bush calls these terrorists or extremists people who hate our freedom because they don’t have it so they boycott our democracies. It is high time this non-sense stopped because it is poisoning inter-community relations and not facilitating dialoguues of religions that many pseduo-freedom fighters are calling for. mI am Muslim woman teaching American students about Islam and the Arab world and it is an ongoing struggle for me trying to show them that i am freedom fighter. Alas ignorance, not only in America but alos in the non-Muslim world made me become so sarcastic that I often feel I am a freedom-hater freedom fighter, if you see what I mean neoneo. As one of my enlightened (and agnostic) American colleagues joked with me: “sarcasm is your only tool of survival in the USA”.
    Happy New Year to everyone!!1
    Keep up the debate
    Houda, Virginia, USA

  9. I would be interested to know what the attitudes in southern Italy are like, considering many “white” northern Italians consider the south to be closer to the “Orient” in terms of culture and social attitudes. For example, honour killings – one of the most hated aspects of Arab/Muslim culture was actually praticed in places like Sicily not too long ago.
    In fact, Anglo-Americans probably had the same view of Italians that Italians now have of Muslims – they’re criminally inclined, have primitive attitudes to control of women, are excessively loyal to family and clan, are poorly educated etc.

  10. Now they know what its like to be a Christian in Saudi Arabia. Ooops, thats wrong. Christianity is ILLEGAL in Saudi Arabia. No bibles, no churches, no nothing Christian.

    Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

  11. “So, my definition of rationality is that there should not be a contradiction between one’s own beliefs.”

    Gabriele,
    I have some thoughts on it. Is it necessary to account for known emperical facts in order to be rational, singular facts or statistics? Can you call someone rational if one does not care about facts which are presented to him or freely equates facts with fiction or use arguments which appeal to imaginary situations as if they were real?

    ” Now, imagine that tomorrow one of Spencer’s crazy supporters kills me in the street to the scream, ‘Muslim apologist!’… …”

    Gabrielle I think that here and in what followed you have invented a new form of logical argumentation. One can think about the possibilities (using modal logic ). But your contribution to logic would allow us to use possibilities as if they are real. What a wonderful thing! :-) I

    Let us call this form of reasoning “Riduzione di immaginazione.”

    Till now, what we had in the world of science: when sane people debate they apeal to facts and logic, not to what they imagine. We can imagine something, but unless it happen it does not change the state of the world. If it happens we have another world and we have another debate and for this reason we do not apeal to imagination.

    You have changed all this. Now with “Riduzione di immaginazione” we do not have to wait till we discover new facts, we just can imagine them and make our points with what we imagine. Bravo Gabriele! I am sure that mankind, especially the world of European experts on Islam will be grateful to you for your contribution to logic!

    Would you like to further enlighten us and write what brought you to your discovery, who influenced you more than others (was it Hegel or Marx or Muhammed?). Please do not be shy, you are becoming a celebrity (thanks to Spencer mostly I guess). And may be you could also illustrate some applications of your discovery. Start with something like “Imagine that pigs can fly…” or “Imagine that G. Bush has once read Quran…” or “Imagine that I , Gabriele Marranici remember all tafsir ibn kathir and Spencer has not…” …Grandi possibilità!

    Have fun,
    neoneo

  12. My comment was about the muslim communities that are leaving in italy.
    What Dr Marranci has written is true, but on my point of view he got only one part of the entire italian reality.
    I know for sure that in Italy there are associations, groups and public structures that are working for and with the local islamic communities for garantee a better integration a mutual respect and knowledge of the respective cultures.
    I have read, not many time ago in the italian newspaper ‘la repubblica’ that a catholic priest, has given the disponibility of the local catholic church for the friday’s prayer and all the islamic festivity . his initiative has been welkomed from both communities.
    Now..I know that this news is not sentational, that probably nobodywill be inflamed about (except Usman..of course) , but Italy is full of initiative like this.
    I agree with Houda, italian people don’t know nothing about Islam, but this is due to the fact that italy has experiences the Muslim migration only recently, and that italian people, are not use to travel or to move so frequently like in UK.,
    Definitly at Oriana Fallaci (that most of italians hated because of her xenophobic position regard islam and the war) corresponds Tiziano Terzani, at the Lega Nord party correspond all the left parties and associations…and so on..
    finally: Usman, don’t worry, I know Gabriele Marranci’s articles..
    happy new year

    olivia

  13. Dear Olivia,

    thank you for your post. Unfortunately, as I have reported in my post above, the priest was forced by the Bishop to deny the room he had offered.

    I think that it is important not to generalise, but I have the impression that what the Lega Nord and fascist movements are doing is not taken too seriously by the Italian government.

    There are millions and millions of Italians who are working for a better democratic Italy. Yet there are many whom end trapped by the easy rhetoric of new-fascist and populist parties and movements since there is no education about other religions from a cultural and sociological viewpoint.

    I suppose that I am in the position to say that Olivia has read my articles.

    I really hope that in my post the criticism was to the widespread ‘tolerance’ towards dehumanization of Muslims. Indeed, if we try to suppose that instead of Muslims they were Italian Jews, what would be the Italian national reaction (press included) to such actions?

    Best wishes and happy 2008
    Gabriele

  14. Dear Houda,
    You have been talking about urgent need to educte Italian public about Islam. I can’t agree more with this. Here is a nice introduction into Islam, short and clear:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/

    I would be happy to know what you think about this course Islam 101. I afraid that you would not like to show it to your students for you probably will find it divisive , etc. Unfortunately any accurate description of Islam is divisive and you have a dilemma: to be accurate or to be divisive.

    You did not write much about yourself so I do not really know where you stand and what you believe in. Please forgive me this, but I think it would be indeed very good if there are more Muslims who regret that they were born as Muslims. I too would regret about my faith if many members of my faith were terrorists and most likely I would change my faith if I find then in its origin it is evil and that terrorists do merely what Muhammad did himself (see the link to Islam 101 above)

    If you or some of your friends really regret to be born as Muslims what stops you from leaving Islam? Many cultural Muslims who knew next to nothing about Islam before 9/11 learned Quran and after finding it repugnant and inhuman they simply left, see some testimonials of apostasy:

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm

  15. Dear Neo,

    I think that today more people regret to be born human, particularly those whom end up studying them.

    What we need, my dear Neoneo is a good Rapture! Are you ready? :-p

    Best wishes
    Gabriele

  16. “I think that today more people regret to be born human, particularly those whom end up studying them. ”

    Dear Gabriele,

    If you happen to suffer from strikes of mysanthropy do not blame anthropology for this :-) It is a common cultural trend. Mostly it is in Europe, where almost everyone who has some eduction seems ashamed of their past, present and want to die. Sweeden happen to be a country with highest suicide rate. It is a normal crisis of values, partially due to continuous destruction of Christian believes. Spencer wrote a lot about this trend in JW.

    The top of this tendency shown by some ecologists:
    “Given the total, absolute disappearance of Homo sapiens, then not only would the Earth’s community of Life continue to exist, but in all probability, its well-being enhanced. Our presence in short is not needed,” Paul Taylor in “Respect for Nature, A Theory of Environmental Ethics.”

    “We have no problem in principle with humans reducing their numbers by killing one another. It’s an excellent way of making humans extinct,” a spokes-creature for the Gaia Liberation Front.

    “Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs,” John Davis, editor of the journal Earth First.

    In the book “The World Without Us,” Alan Weisman celebrates what he sees as the inevitable extinction of humanity, as vine and branch, deer and bear, reclaim our cities.

    There’s even a Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, which describes itself as “the humanitarian alternative to human disasters.” VHEMT explains that “the hopeful alternative to the extinction of millions of species of plants and animals is the voluntary extinction of one species: Homo sapiens… us.”

    Now, be happy that you are just an anthropologist, not an ecologist, otherwise you would have more strong excuses to hate humans and to want to die and would be also surrounded by collegues with opinions which are far more bizare than those which you hear during your field work :-)

    But looking at your photo I think that you do not suffer from strikes of misanthropy, do you? Most probably your just wanted to make a point that we are not different from Muslims in doing insane things and it is all part of human nature to be sometimes evil. And if this was the point then I should remind that Muslim texts indicate that Muhammad was

    a narcissist a misogynist a rapist
    a pedophile a lecher a torturer
    a mass murderer a cult leader an assassin
    a terrorist a mad man a looter
    (ref http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm)

    See, there is a a question of scale of evil here. It is hard to find someone who was as eveil as Muhammad. Only Hitler and Stalin would come close, but will not compete with old Mo. I think none of them was capable of raping a woman whose husband he just killed. And even Hitler would not take pleasure in slashing throats of 700 jews by their own hand, but rather would order someone else to do this. And none of them was a pedophile.

    Best wishes to you too.
    Neoneo

  17. Unfair to call Mo a pedophile, in oldie days human females were commonly married at ages which to us are unacceptable.

    When I was ignorant of Islam I thought it was just another religion. Now that I know more about it I think it’s the worst thing in the world.

    Italy seems like one of those very Catholic places, like Poland, where being even a Protestant is too exotic. Perhaps this is why the phrase, “when in Rome do as the Romans do” came into being.

  18. “Unfair to call Mo a pedophile, in oldie days human females were commonly married at ages which to us are unacceptable.”

    Dear Lynn,
    How many times have you heard from Muslim leaders speaking through the media “Whatever was good for Muhammad and his community must be good for us too?” I heard about 10 times in 4 years. And do you know that right after Iranian revolution the first thing ayatollahs have done is reduce marginable age for girls to 6 years?
    This is common to all religion and I know it by personal experience since I switch my religion more than a couple of times that one of the main components of being religious is the mental participation in the events of the past and self-identification with those religious personages. It is plain obvious if you look at Baptists coming from door to door spreading the Gospel and thinking that they are apostles of Christ. Visits a Hindu marriage with Hindi speaking friend and you will find that their ritual evokes old legends of Shiva and Parvati and there is some sort of ritual identification of couple with Shiva and Parvati. Obviously Mujahedeen too believe that they are fighters in the army of Muhammad, fighting fitnah until the world of allah become supreme.
    Now, I have been absolutely surprised to find that modern anthropologists (I believe Gabriele represent them fairly) are completely blind to this simple fact. So much for Max Mullers and Sirs James George Frazers! You have absolutely secular kids with no whatsoever personal religious experience and very little exposure to life going out and doing research according to methodology they learned in school and believe it is science what they learned.
    Dear Gabriele,
    Please forgive me my little remark above, I did not mean to be sarcastic, I have been thinking a lot about it. I think I should take back my suspicion that you are a some sort of Muslim convert. Judging by your responses and comments I rather suspect that you have no close (internal) encounter with any religion whatsoever. Your parents/guardians with whom you grown most likely were secular too (though I less sure about this part). My impression is that you know absolutely nothing about process of religious experience. How otherwise I can explain to myself your absolutely counterfactual comments (something like “it is naïve to believe that Muslims drag their theological ideas from the past.” Of course they do, just as Christian, Hindus, Buddhists etc do with their myths and if your had ever been part of any religion you would have known it)
    See I left my exposure to anthropology where Max Mullers and Sir James George Frazer left it, so you are right at one point, I have been absolutely ignorant of modern anthropologist work and what I see from your comment completely strikes me down.
    You think that you are using right methodology as it is evolved and you learned it from your teachers, and your are doing academic work. I trust that you are a professional and you did well in your school, but what I started to suspect is that modern anthropology as a whole is a big intellectual bankruptcy. We all witnessed the fact that science of Marxis-Leninism for which Soviet Union and China invested far more funds than all world invested into anthropology happen to be a failure.
    . What proof do you have that your are doing science rather than art? Do you have any notion of falsifiable hypotheses? Are your actually compliant with those little but influential works of neo-positivists school that talk about difference between scientific and non-scientific theories?
    Looking at wiki entry on anthropology and noting that philosophy of Multiculturalism steamed from anthropologist I strengthen my statement. Modern anthropology is not only a failure , but is a disaster, because that is what it contribute to society!
    The narrow windowed, misinformed and close minded approach to study people that your science uses may bring only disaster. This is what you are going to contribute to policy making if they listen to your guys. Are you ready to be personally liable for failure of policies informed by you sub-scientific field?

    Of course, personally I wish you all the best in your professional development and perhaps I will not spam your blog with my messages repeating the same point.
    My closed boundaries of our academic disciplines do not obscure our mind and do not deprive us our common sense!

    neoneo

  19. Dear Neoneo,

    thank you for your offer not to ‘spam’ the blog with re-statements, yet you are welcomed to comment and contribute to the posts from your viewpoint. I am sure that I will offer other posts for debates (I am behind with my work and for this reason I rarely post).

    I think that weakpedia (as I call it) is not the best place to know about anthropology. Yet I agree with you about the crisis of contemporary anthropology and the fear that some anthropologists have about ‘science’. If you look at my university page, you can see that I work also with cognitive neuroscience.

    I think also that you may want to read more about what anthropologists (I am a social anthropologist, in the US the majority are cultural anthropologists) have contributed to the victory against Nazism in WWII, and that they are currently being deployed in Iraq by your government, with your tax money.

    I have to correct a factual mistake, so (sorry…I am still a teacher) you have said ‘We all witnessed the fact that science of Marxis-Leninism for which Soviet Union and China invested far more funds than all world invested into anthropology happen to be a failure.’
    Anthropology (the western kind of anthropology we are speaking of here) was rejected by those dictatorial countries as it was by Fascism and Nazism. Take care not to confuse anthropology with social and cultural anthropology…they are different disciplines. Like psychology, social and cultural anthropology, with their strong democratic stands, were very much at odds with state ‘truth’ imposition.

    I hope that one day you leave behind weakpedias and unverifiable information on the Internet and maybe start to look around the world of academia – not everything is good, but it’s a good place to start.

    Pleased to have met you,
    Gabriele

  20. Dear All,

    I have been contacted by some of the people who left comments or engaged in debate with Spencer’s supporters and, as has happened to me, they have received death threats from some of the most violent fringe of JihadWatch.

    I have to remind all of you that it is a serious crime in both the UK and US to send abusive comments and death threats. The police take seriously such offences and investigate them.

    It is not difficult to trace the IP address of email, messages and other forms of electronic communication. Our police are extremely good at finding who these nice and civilised people are.

    Please, if you wish to leave messages here, you are welcome. Yet I strongly suggest that you never contact any of the posters personally.

    Best wishes
    Gabriele

  21. Well for people offended by this behaviour towards muslims does it ever occur to you the behaviour of your people towards non muslims in your own countries in particular the middle east.Im sick of people talking about all this discrimination in western world why DONT YOU PEOPLE LOOK AT MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES AND HOW THEY TREAT NON MUSLIMS HOW BOUT THAT FOR A CHANGE LOOK AT HOW OTHERS THAT ARE NO MUSLIMS ARE TREATED THERE LETS HAVE AN ARTICLE ABOUT THAT

  22. Dear Davide,

    thank you for your email. There are thousand of articles about the issues in Middle East Countries. Also we cannot generalised, we have to observe which country in the Middle East. Also there are other Muslim majority countries (see Malaysia) where your experience, as non-Muslims and non-Malay, will be normally quite positive.

    If you have a first hand account of your bad experience in a Middle East country I will be happy to report it here. It is useful to share expiriences.

    Best wishes
    Gabriele

  23. As a non-Italian I find this article outrageous. Contrary to what author may believe in (or not) there is no duty for indigenous population to love people who are displacing them. This applies to East Timor, this applies to Tibet and this applies to Italy, too.

    The mass immigration is a form of genocide. Even in Italy.

  24. Dear Ales,

    could you provide the statistic for which you can claim that there is a ‘mass migration’ in Italy or the country you have mentioned?
    I also wonder….do you consider the state of Israel the product of ‘mass migration’? If so, has it , according to you, the right to exist? What about Australia? Should the Aboriginal expel white ‘mass migrated’ population back to Europe from where they came from?

    I have the impression that you will not be ready to apply your comment to other clear successful ‘displacement’ of indigenous people.

    Best wishes
    Gabriele

  25. “Mamma i Turchi!” Huh! This only represents the ignorance, arrogance and prejudice of the “civilized” nations. I am a Muslim living in Istanbul, Turkey and I find this phrase very offending. neoneo said that: “Christianity has changed but has Islam changed?” missing the vital point; our Kur’an is the same as it was written for the first time, by the exact words of Allah(I refuse to name Allah as god), and it hasn’t changed a bit after all those years. If you collect Kur’an from everywhere around the world, you will see that all are the same. However you can’t say this for Holy Bible(which is also required to be acknowledged and accepted as the holy work of Allah for a fulfilled faith in Allah, and of course this counts only for the most loyal copy of the original) because there are totally different versions out there, written by and again changed by the Curch, and they are named with “the writer’s” names. Then the question is “What is the reason of this hatred for the Muslims and Islam?”, in my opinion the answer is: “Because they are just afraid to learn the truth and ready to judge because it is easier.”

  26. hi people

    why cant we just get along… and plz stop labeling people i am a turkish dude living in italy and i can say that most of mediterenian countries are like each other we all like the same foods we all do the same things and we even make love the same way….but somehow we just cant get along. trust me if a itallian and a greek and a turkish person went to any other place then europe together they would start being friends. there are only minor changes between us…we have to keep in mind that there is allways going to be some douchebags like fanatics and extremists that will provoke other people and even try to brain wash people….i can talk about this all day but i dont think it will make a difference.. everyone is going to do what they do like any other day…

    race , religion or nationality no matter what we are and who we are, we have to be understanding and respectfull to each other in the end we are all human…

    (p.s i dont care if this isnt directly related to the subject and i dont care about religion, i think its a big fat scam… this doesnt mean that i dont believe in god or allah or a creator or what ever u want to call it …)

    Thank you all

  27. Dear Jem,

    thanks for your comment. There was an old saying among the Mediterranean people: “One face, One race”. You are right, we share lots of things, even in religion (though people often cannot see it, it is quite easy to spot for an anthropologist).

    I think also you left in the list of similarities the most shared aspect of all: Political corruptions of our politicians :-)

    have a nice time

    Gabriele

  28. Dear all,

    You may find it amusing, or at least some sort of poetic justice, that there is a counterpart to that (terrible) Italian phrase, “Mamma, li turchi”. Paolo di Avitabile was an Italian mercenary, originally from San Lazzaro (near Naples) who in the 1830s worked his way to serving under Ranjeet Singh as governor of Peshawar. The stories of his cruelty are legendary, for example that every morning before breakfast, he’d have a few locals hurled from the top of the minar of the Mahabat Khan Mosque to teach unruly tribesmen a lesson. Such was his cruelty that even tpday mothers in scare their naughty children with the threat of ‘calling Abu Tabela’ (‘Avitabile’). [e.g. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/naples/blog19.htm%5D

    Ironically, one of Abu Tabela’s descendants migrated to the US at the time of the (in)famous Ellis Island.

    Which brings me to the topic of discussion, the supposed migrant ‘wave’ of Muslims who will take over Italy: as someone born and bread in Italy, I’m particularly ashamed of the way Italians have handled this. All of us have in the living memory of our families stories of migration, and of the discrimination which Italians were subjected to on the basis of their ethnicity, their culture, and their religion. Many of us Italians still *are* migrants. All Italians bitterly –and rightly– complained of the injustice, of the inhumanity of such abuse. In fact, we don’t even need to go as ‘far’ back as the 1960s and 1970s: just remember those interviews with Italian migrants in France or Germany who just after the World Cup victory in 2006 said “thank god at least for four years we’ll be able to say we can do something better than them!”. Such comments speak volumes of the cultural discrimination Italians are subjected to still today, and speaking as an Italian migrant I can vouch for just how alive and well that discrimination can be. Discrimination, that is, despite the fact that often these communities of migrants were precisely those most eager to integrate into French, German, British or American society. What did we say ‘back then’? We said: “Why the racist stereotypes? We are neither cavemen, nor mafiosi! We *want* to be British/German/French/American!” Sadly, we were as right back then as our contemporaries are today. Many of us migrants wanted our children to integrate so badly, we wanted so badly to leave that country and all the trouble it caused our families behind, that we didn’t even teach our kids Italian.

    ….And now? Now we suddenly seem to forget all of this history as soon as ‘foreigners’ arrive on our shores. Clearly we’re not worried about bikini-clad blonde, blue-eyed German or Swedish foreigners on summer holidays — no, Italians are worried about “l’uomo nero” (‘the black man’, another phrase which speaks volumes…). If we come from a thousands-year-old culture, why do we have such short memories? Shame on Italians!

    Immigration *does* pose problems, and they need to be faced and tackled in a serious, logical, open-minded manner, just like anything else. But to talk as though ‘The Muslims Are Coming’ is either ignorance, stupidity or racism. Take your pick.

    Italians have the choice of either facing up to their prejudices, or of being doubly culpable of that racism.

    Peace,
    Andrea

  29. How u doin y’all, i’m a Egyptian Muslim.

    i just wanna say one word

    “the muslims who kills, destroy, .. etc
    we do not consider them as muslims, and they are not muslims”

    do not get any infos from any website about Islam

    Greeting of Islam is : PEACE ON YOU السلام عليكم

    ************************************************

    What does Islam say about terrorism?

    Unfortunately more and more often, Islam has been associated with terrorism and violence due to the actions of a few extreme individuals who’ve taken it upon themselves to do the most heinous crimes in the name of Islam.

    TO READ MORE GO THEIR:

    http://discover.islamway.com/articles.php?article_id=47

    *************************************************

    Thanks for let me share, peace on y’all

  30. If the Muslims didn’t constantly say that they want to wipe the west of the map and replace it with a greater caliphate. maybe then us westerners would be more sympathetic to the needs of muslims. As for Mosques in Italy we should only have as many as there are churches in Saudi Arabia fairs fair. If they say we are Islamophobic for not wanting a mosque cant we call the muslim countries who continuously burn down churches and in numerous cases ban them christianophibic?

  31. Dear Laureen,

    Thank you for your email. I can see that your comments may be the result of misinformation. The main issue is generalization.

    First of all, do you really think that 2 billion Muslims wish to wipe the ‘west’ off the map? Or that all of them support the idea of a Caliphate or have the same idea of what the Caliphate is?

    At the moment, I really see lots of the ‘west’ in Muslim lands, and lots of Muslims killed. If we have to proceed with generalization which I do not love, we may wish to ask how many Muslim innocents since 1980 have been killed by the so called ‘west’ (in which I am sure you include Israel) in their own Muslim countries and how many innocent westerners all together have been killed by Muslims in their own ‘western’ countries?

    If we have to debate about ‘numbers’, I leave to you the task of doing the maths. Please, give us an approximated number, at least.

    As I said in another comment, I never met something called ‘Muslims’, Christians, Jews, but people of different extractions, backgrounds, ethnicities, nationalities, ideologies, political ideas, and so on whom define themselves (or are defined by others) as such.

    Saudi Arabia, the main ally of the ‘West’, does not represent 2 billion Muslims; neither the Arabs nor the Middle East! So, why do people in ‘the west’ love Saudi Arabia, support it and then criticize it. I think that you may address this question to your MPs or government.

    Saudi Arabia is a country and a very oppressive one (though on the route to change) . Yet the ‘west’ sells weapons to Saudi forces, governments accept money for building mosques and even sponsoring courses in UK universities. So, it seems that the ‘West’ loves the Saudi regime and, if we wish to generalize as you do, hates ‘moderate’ ordinary Muslims (who reject the regime).

    Why do you wish that your own country becomes as a despotic regime? If you apply your idea of one church one mosque in Saudi Arabia, we have also to apply the rest…Wahabi Shari’a in Saudi so likewise Christian theocracy (if it ever existed,) in the West, and so on.

    If you believe in liberal democracy, you are proud of it and you stick to your values. From your comments it is clear that you do not appreciate these values and you think that liberal democracy should be applied selectively.

    However, just to help you to see things in perspective, and for a minute following your own reasoning of one mosque ‘in the Muslim world’, one church in the ‘Christian West’ (if something like that really exists, and I do not think so, since a Christian ‘church’ as such does not exist because Christianity is fragmented into uncountable denominations!), try to calculate:

    1) the number of Christians, in particular of ‘Western’ origin, in ALL Muslim world
    2) the number of official churches in the Muslim world in proportion to the Christian population
    3) the number of Muslims living in the ‘West’
    4) the number of official mosques (with minaret and all) in the ‘West’.

    If you do so, we may try some real (though not so useful I would say) comparison.

    Best wishes
    Gabriele

  32. Gabriele,

    The little experience I have had with some Italians, even in Germany as a foreigner confirm everything you’ve so rightfully analyzed here. At that time, I received more hate words from Italians on German streets than from Germans themselves! I am not even Muslim but have dark hair and am clearly exotic. I support your analysis of the cultural thinking of Italians in general and it would be interesting to read (just as intelligent) analysis of your entire article – useful analysis I might add – just to get another ‘educated’ viewpoint.

    Those like neoneo, shame on you, as you’ve missed the point completely and are never interested in even seeing anyone else’s point of view anyway – you have the world still counting the many Jews that were exterminated during WWII but very few of you acknowledge or want to remember that other millions who were not Jews died just as horribly. Not all of life is about Jews, Christianity and Islam the supposed wicked – sometimes I dare believe that Christianity and Western countries, especially the US, have not assisted the situation with the Islamic countries up to 9/11 – your self-instilled terror and fear do the rest of the job.

    A few of you should surely should spend some more time reading less Zionist literature and far more intelligent, unbiased research and history – to be far more specific, analyzing history and news far more carefully; otherwise, it’s a waste of time to comment and a waste of time for the rest of us to read narrow-minded, one-sided and uneducated viewpoints.

    I can’t believe there’s a website called IslamMonitor.org – what about IsraelMonitor.org?! What about AfricaMonitor.org; some educated Christian people in the USA are ‘watching’ Christianity and I fully support their view if they were to register a website called ChristianyWatch.org – Christians trying to take Science out of schools and bring Bible Study as History into schools. I get it – maybe I should have a website called ExtremismMonitor.org – covers everything from extremist Muslims to extremist Catholics, to extremist Italians, to extremist Germans to extremist Serbs and all – just everything that is extremist and alarming.

    By the way Gabriele, did you ever have this article published? I think its worth publishing – just a few minor errors. Forgive my ranting.

  33. …totally misleading article.
    But it’s true that there’s a certain hatred raising…obviously!
    Illegal immigration is tolerated and it leads to criminality. When u see that the most part of little crimes (the ones who touch the population) and that for instance all the drug dealers comes from north africa and other muslim countries u start discriminating and thinking “hey…you know what? you shouldnt be here doing this mess in my country!”
    let’s start by controlling immigration, so that the ones who enter legally are really integrated!

    And anyway…generally speaking and as a personal opinion, i dont like the meltin’ pot…i’d like to see the turks and the turkish traditions in turkey, italians in italy, swedish in sweden and so on! If i go to Paris now it seems like being in Algeri….why….why? we’re losing our identities, we’re losing our traditions, our differences…and differences are a richness!
    p.s.
    i travelled a lot and im studying in an international class with turks, south americans, chineses, europeans, jordans, iranians etc. and i hang out with them every day so….

  34. Dear Carlo,
    Thank you for your comment and for visiting my blog.
    Normally, maybe because I am an academic, I expect that after a strong criticism, such as the term ‘misleading’ the commentator may elaborate further on what ‘is’ misleading and the reason for which the article it is so. From the sources I have and the research that I have personally conducted in Italy, I think that it is clear that the negative attitude towards foreigners, in particular when Muslims, it is not just linked to the representation of criminality.
    I found some interesting elements in your comments yet you tend to collapse issues that are quite separated:
    You envisage a world where people of one nation (or one culture or one ethnic groups) live in total separation form the others. Yet this never existed since human beings where living on this planet hearth. Our ‘Italian culture’ would not have been as we know it without the influences of many other cultures. Leonarso da Vinci, would not have been Leonardo, without all the influence that Greek, Arab and oriental culture had on his ideas and science. Florence would not be my Florence without being that ‘melting pot’ that has been for centuries.
    Today we live in a global village and we are interconnected and because of the economical realities, it is impossible to envisage isolationistic positions: even from the cultural viewpoint.

    Said that the strict control of migration is an important aspect of the nation state: yet why to blame the migrants for the inefficiency of the state and its political system in filtering what it is good from migration and what it is better to avoid? Italy has an history of being unable to cope with migration and plan and manage it because it is a new phenomenon for it: Italians were migrants (and have affected, in positive and negative ways, many other cultures, even here in Singapore!!) but did not use to receive migrants.

    Migration and criminality: as you may expect the majority of crimes even the most horrible (like rape, drugs and child abuse, and domestic abuse) are committed in Italy by Italians. This is a statistical fact. Yet the mass media emphasis mainly the crimes that involve migrants (since those committed by Italians are reported only when exceptional). If we have a clear good policy for migration, we would even reduce the crimes committed by migrants, of whatever religion or cultural background. Yet the reality is that if we keep the migrants, that we need for our economy, extremely marginalized the risk will increase. Rules are important, but they should be based not only on ‘duties’ but also rights.
    I am happy that you enjoy your cultural diverse environment. So, which it is the problem: bad management of migration and differences by the state? right? well, why to blame the majority of the migrants whom are also victim of it? It would not be better that instead of propaganda (from the right to the left) the Italian government call some experts in the sector and try to address the issue in an intelligent way?

  35. this antropologist is a fake….he is a layer….
    he have put an itali9an name but he is a muslim and not an italian one……….he cannot speak italian well and he pretend to judge a whole nation since a national party as lega nord that take only 7 % of vote in the last election….
    than alleanza nazionale is the great party that fight against the anti /semitic discrimination….the president of camera was attacked by some racists and he defeat him…shut up….u take some stupid notice on a newpaper and pretend to describe a complex reality of a country…
    how many italian were killed in france , germany, in U.S.A OR AUSTRALIA WITHOUT A JUSTIC JUDGEMENT CAUSE THERE WERE ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS????? when could we have a good judgement for that cases of 50 years ago????
    we are wainting for 100 years for justice but nothing we are hearding sice these goodest countries that u refer to….
    QUANDO CI RIPAGHERANNO DEGLI ITALIANI MASSACRATI A NEW ORLEANS, AIGUE MARTENS,TALLULHA ETC ETC…PERCHE’ ITALIANI??? QUANDO CI RIPAGHERANNO DELLE DICHIARAZIONI DI NIXON CONTRO GLI ITALIANI???
    QUANDO MUSSULMANI FINIRANNO DI FARE ATTENTATI IN INDIA E ATTACCARE ANCHE CRISTIANI?? CI HAI PENSATO???
    A GREAT PALESTIAN HISTORIC MAN SAID THAT THE WORLD IS TOO INTERDIPENDENT IF IT HAPPEN A THING IN A COUNTRY IT COULD INFLUENCE THE SITUATION IN ANOTHER COUNTRY…HIS NAME WAS SAID….SO ACCORDING THIS PALESTINIAN CRITIC EVERYTHING THAT IS MADE IN A COUNTRY HAVE A CONSEQUENCE IN ANOTHER TIME AND SPACE…WHY DO U WONDER OF IT???
    COULD U REALLY WONDER OF WHAT’S HAPPENING IN AN WESTERN COUNTRY IF PEOPLE VIEW THE MANACES OF AL QAEDA AND FEAR OF IT??? I COULDN’T….THEN THERE IS AN FAILED TERRORIST ACT IN ITALY THIS DAY ..DO U KNOW???
    THE POLICE HAVE ARRESTED TWO ISLAMICS FROM MAROCCO THAT HAVE PUT A BOMB IN SOME SUPERMARKET PARKS CAR AND THE IMMIGRATION CENTER IN MILAN…READ NEWSPEAR NOW AND DO NOT WRITE DULLTHINGS……….u can delete this comment but u cannot delete the reality

  36. Dear Mino from Naples (aka IO)

    thank you for your intelligent, well written and kind message which surely shows which kind of cultured and sophisticated person you actually are.

    I have not deleted this comment because it is a clear and perfect example, at least for an anthropologist, of the issues that Italy has to face.

    You are upset with immigrants, with Muslims, and even more with Americans and Australians (whom you hate deeply, as we can see). By the way, I am sure that the fact that the US has now a Black president may disturb you even more.

    Also it seems that you have been a bit misinformed (see the comments about India, since indeed there have been attacks from all religions against the others in India), but I suppose that you do not spend much of your time on the Internet checking information (I see that you are interested mostly in football and cybersex), but rather prefer abusing other people and nations with your idiosyncratic ‘turpiloquio’.

    Thank you for providing the best example of the issues I was trying to debate.

    Gabriele

  37. I just found this site when I searched the phrase “Mamma, li Turchi”. It is interesting and intelligent, even though I disagree with your conclusions.

    Although I cannot abide prejudice because I know what it feels like, and simply because it is wrong, I cannot fault Italians when I look at the larger picture. I am Jewish and what I see is that where a large community of Muslims exists in a country, such as France (I’m not as familiar with Italy), the Jewish community is harassed and threatened to the point that many flee their homes and move away to Israel or the US. Of course, there are fine Muslims, but when the community grows larger those who are inimical to their adopted country become more evident and more demanding. Their children can reflect these same attitudes. Soon we will have the recriminations as to why. And the circular arguments begin. “It’s because of Muslim culture”/ “No, it’s because of discrimination” — and on and on as a society wastes its energy on these conflicts instead of moving forward. However, one notes other immigrant groups, such as Jews from North Africa, do not have these same problems. Neither do Hindus. And yet Muslims do. We must wonder why. Perhaps the Muslim culture has the tiniest part to play. You think?

    These large sidewalk prayer gatherings are a good example. They are more than a religious experience; they are a show of strength; streets are blocked, and the locals rightly frustrated. Where there is no synagogue Jews gather in small groups at friends’ apartments to pray. No one would dream of blocking the sidewalk. You really go too far when you compare the Muslims to the Jews. I understand why you make the comparison, but it is not convincing.

    Italians are smarter than the French or the Dutch, or if not smarter they at least know how to defend their country from the fate that has befallen France, the Netherlands, and the UK — where Muslims stand on street corners with electric megaphones and say they will kill Britons.

    As far as Oriana Fallaci, she was a courageous Italian who saw far ahead of others what the dangers are. She had no fear. She had a clear vision of what lay ahead.

  38. I cannot believe the fear we Muslims instill in the West…99% of which is lies by the government and media. I agree we are demonised like the Jews were and we all know how that ended. It is all a conspiracy by the elite for their own agenda as far as I am concerned. I have always loved all things Italian and recently went to Italy and although I dress conservatively I don’t wear a headscarf and I could not tell if people were constantly staring on the metro because they didnt like asians/muslims or they thought our group was attractive! Hope it was the latter because dont like idea of people hating my faith because to me it is the only thing in my life to give me peace- contrary to popular belief.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s